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Home Columns  by Scott Tipton  by Chris Ryall  by Scott Bowden  by Joshua Jabcuga  by Jud Meyers    |  Ron Twoeagle |
SQUIB CENTRAL
By Joshua Jabcuga
2010-07-19 - Aiming for the Butcher
Aiming for the Butcher: Josh talks with Bryan Alvarez about WRESTLING OBSERVER'S THE LIFE & TIMES OF ABDULLAH THE BUTCHER DVD. Why didn't Abby get a run in the WWF? Did Abby invent hardcore wrestling? And could Bryan Danielson end up in TNA?!
Josh Jabcuga: First off, congrats on the release of WRESTLING OBSERVER PRESENTS THE LIFE AND TIMES OF ABDULLAH THE BUTCHER DVD set (www.wrestlingobservershoots.com)! I know you prepared for quite a while watching Abby's matches, doing research, and probably even getting input from Dave Meltzer (legendary pro wrestling and mixed martial arts journalist and a great man!). After spending time with Abby behind the scenes, interviewing him on camera talking about his entire life and career, what was the single most surprising thing about the man that you discovered, something where you were like, "Wow, that totally caught me off guard."
Bryan Alvarez (founder of Figure Four Wrestling at www.wrestlingobserver.com and one of the most respected authorities on pro wrestling and MMA): Nothing really caught me off guard. I guess the one thing I noticed more than anything else is how he had this aura of danger about him. I mean, he's almost 70 years old with bad hips and walks with a cane, but the entire time I was sitting there thinking, "At any moment this guy could try to cut me." I was constantly wary. So it really didn't surprise me at all when he talked about going through a crowd and people running for their lives. I'd have done the same thing if he was 20 years younger. And that's really something that's missing in wrestling today, the guys where you know that they're performers, but at the same time you think, "Man, this is potentially a dangerous man."
Joshua Jabcuga: Watching the two-disc DVD set (which includes a bonus soundtrack), you discussed Abby never getting a run in the WWF against Hogan, or even Undertaker. Abby would have been the perfect monster heel to play off Hulk Hogan in the 80s. Do you think him never getting a run in the WWF or against Hogan is as simple as it being a case of politics or as Abby said repeatedly, him not kissing ass.
Bryan Alvarez: Well, I think what he meant by that was that he never begged for them to bring him in. He would have been a great heel foil for Hogan, but you have to remember this was the 80s and he worked a style that was not made for a promotion that had Hulk Hogan cereal and Saturday morning cartoons. Hogan vs. Abby in Japan was a total bloodbath, and as Abby noted in the DVD, he never grabbed a (wrestling) hold in his life. If Hogan and Abby were both born 15 years later and Hogan was having his big first run in the 90s WWF, then yeah, that would have worked out a lot better.
Joshua Jabcuga: When it's all said and done, what do you think Abby's legacy will be? Do you think an argument can be made that he started what is referred to as "hardcore wrestling"?
Bryan Alvarez: Well, it depends on what you consider hardcore wrestling. NWA had a brass knuckles title before Abby even got into the business, and in terms of blood and violence, while he was able to grab a hold, Freddie Blassie was filing his teeth on television and working bloodbaths in the 50s and 60s. Abby will tell you that he taught the Sheik everything he knew (author's note: the original, not the Iron Sheik), but I think the Sheik would tell you that he taught Abby everything he knew.
As far as legacy, he was a much bigger star internationally than he ever was in the US or Canada, and he's still being flown to Japan and honored there today in 2010. We were hoping to sell a lot of the DVDs in Japan but someone over there basically told me that it probably wouldn't happen because in Japan everyone knew everything there was to know about Abdullah the Butcher.
Joshua Jabcuga: I really enjoyed the bonus matches included with the DVD set, including the likes of Abby vs. Bruiser Brody, Abby vs. Giant Baba, and even a War Games style match that has among its participants, the Iron Sheik! You and Vinnie (Figure Four Wrestling cohort, mainstay, and enlightened man) provide insightful commentary, and point out the formula that seems prevalent in most of Abdullah the Butcher's matches. Not to disrespect the accomplishments of Abby, a true "professional" who could draw money in his day and who has been in the industry for something like 450 years, but I couldn't help but notice that his matches are, well, boring, certainly by today's standards. He moved around remarkably for a man his size, and he always got off-the-charts heat with crowds. With today's smart crowds, could an Abdullah the Butcher in his prime be as successful in 2010 as he was back when kayfabe was still alive, when there was a mystique and an aura surrounding wrestlers who were portrayed as "legit tough guys or monster heels"?
Bryan Alvarez: Well, first off, Abby would never even get signed to developmental. WWE (World Wrestling Entertainment) has a more cookie-cutter style of wrestling today than ever before and it would be really hard for them to justify bringing him in for more than like a short run as a heel foil for Undertaker. And that's nothing against Abby because I could name a hundred huge stars throughout the history of wrestling that would never even get a look from WWE in 2010.
Joshua Jabcuga: I've watched a lot of shoot interviews over the years, and some are dreadful and painful to view, whether it's the result of poor production values or hosts that have no interview skills or techniques. I had no doubt here that the production would be top notch since it carried the WRESTLING OBSERVER name. Additionally, you're a respected journalist with years of experience hosting a who's who of pro wrestling and mixed martial arts stars, past and present, on your Figure Four Daily podcasts, among other places. You've interviewed everyone from Bret Hart and Bruno Sammartino, to Ken Shamrock and Don Frye. You're also an active wrestler on the indie circuit. For all intents and purposes, this is your highest profile on-camera interview, if not your first. Now that it's over, do you think there's any difference between interviewing someone on your radio shows and podcasts over the phone, as opposed to face to face?
Bryan Alvarez: Well it's easier over the phone because nobody can see you scribbling notes, or writing down questions on a pad, or doing a quick Internet search to find someone's name or another piece of information. It's harder because you're on camera much of the time. I learned a lot from this, little things personally that I hope to improve on next time. Overall I was happy with it but not completely satisfied. It's also hard sometimes because you watch it back and think of a bunch of follow-up questions you could have asked, but as you're doing it live you don't necessarily always think of those things.
Joshua Jabcuga: Speaking of the next one, you've already announced MMA legend Bas Rutten as the next WRESTLING OBSERVER SHOOTS subject. On the ABDULLAH THE BUTCHER release, one of the DVD extras is a tour of ABDULLAH THE BUTCHER'S HOUSE OF RIBS. Since you're a student and practitioner of jiu-jitsu, any chance we'll see you rolling on the mats getting a lesson from Bas as a bonus feature on the next DVD? And have you given any consideration to doing a future release of you visiting and training at Lance Storm's Pro Wrestling Academy? (Author's Note: Lance Storm, most notable for his amazing runs and often superb matches in WWE, WCW, and ECW, is a biweekly guest on Bryan's Figure Four Daily podcast (www.wrestlingobserver.com.)
Bryan Alvarez: Yes and yes. I suggested both and I'm pretty sure those will be the extras.
Joshua Jabcuga: Since I've got you here, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about Bryan Danielson (recently fired from WWE in a controversial manner, in which his actions in a scripted storyline were considered as crossing the lines of a PG-rated product). You know I was one of the guys who was adamant that it was a worked storyline (predetermined), and you humbled me, telling me once or twice, and all of your readers and listeners for that matter, that it was the real deal. Question: If TNA were to agree to Paul Heyman's terms and hire him basically in the same capacity that UFC uses Dana White, do you think the odds of Danielson showing up in TNA would increase? I understand there's a lot of "what if's" here.
Bryan Alvarez: I think they'd have to offer him a lot. He took the WWE gig because after all these years of killing himself for no money, he wanted to not kill himself for some good money on the big stage. TNA isn't the big stage and they don't have a lot of money, and I don't think Paul Heyman being there would make him think differently about that.
Joshua Jabcuga: If you could interview one person for a future release, who's still active in the business, who would be at the top of your personal list? Is Vince McMahon the ultimate "get" for just about anyone?
Bryan Alvarez: Sure, Vince, Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair. Guys like that. Guys we probably aren't getting anytime soon!
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WRESTLING OBSERVER PRESENTS THE LIFE AND TIMES OF ABDULLAH THE BUTCHER is the Wrestling Observer Newsletter and Figure Four Empire's (www.wrestlingobserver.com) first foray into the sports entertainment "shoot" interview market. It can be ordered directly at www.wrestlingobservershoots.com, and will also be available at stores like Best Buy and Wal~Mart.
If you're a fan of pro wrestling or mixed martial arts, there's no better source for analysis, in depth news coverage, and scoops, than the Wrestling Observer Newsletter and Figure Four Daily podcasts. A subscription is the best money you'll ever spend, and I can't recommend it enough. It's informative, entertaining, and reliable! Check out Dave Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez at www.WrestlingObserver.com.
Follow Josh on Twitter for news, views, and contests at: www.Twitter.com/Jabcuga
Joshua Jabcuga is a freelance writer most notable for his two comic-book series, SCARFACE: DEVIL IN DISGUISE, and THE MUMMY: THE RISE & FALL OF XANGO'S AX, both available from IDW Publishing (and can be purchased at Amazon.com). His online column, Squib Central, is available exclusively for Scott Tipton's www.Comics101.com. His work has also appeared in Penny Blood magazine, ChuckPalahniuk.net, Bookgasm.com, and Horrorworld.org, among other places.
"Josh Jabcuga can take the 26 measly letters of our crude alphabet and capture the bi-polar soul of all that is classically yet disturbingly American. Then, when his typewriter is left to cool, he can turn right around...completely ready to trounce any drunk punk that's got me backed into a corner." -- The Colonel J.D. Wilkes of The Legendary Shack*Shakers, currently appearing on the soundtrack to HBO's hit series, TRUE BLOOD.
